You must be the first person I've heard complaining about the dominance of BC's in low sec. *chuckles*

So you are flying in frigate gangs and you complain that BCs are an annoyance. Why should a BC not have some defence against a frigate gang. And it is relatively easy to counter that defence, fit a small nos to counter his neut, and use your signature to avoid his DPS.

Unless you are complaining that your kitey frigate gang cannot engage him risk free with a long point without him MJDing away, in which case I have even less sympathy.

My counters are tried and tested, and I never said it was easy, but then it shouldn't be fighting a BC in a frigate. But no matter, I am happy if you overlook this as it means more easy targets who don't fully understand the PvP mechanics.

But anyway to the point of the thread, as for forcing people to stay and fight, what will actually happen as pointed out and as evidenced from tests on Singularity is that the HIC will kite you at range relatively risk free until either he kills you or backup arrives.

I'll just say that a single svipul can very easily single handedly hold down any BC if you know what you are doing, the only real problem will be ECM. The same logic can easily be applied to a standard frigate although it is more risky. Like I said, BCs are very weak against smaller ships in the current meta. It is against cruisers and above where they start to become more useful.

I have actually fought and killed plenty of slippery fits, I wouldn't consider any BC to be very slippery.

Try fighting a phantasm or nano nightmare with defensive webs and scram, or T3 with fuel catalyst and oversized AB and you'll see what a proper slippery fit is. BCs are one of the least capable classes of ship to be able to fit as you suggest. They don't get that much benefit from an oversized AB, and are natively slow, and generally lack midslots to fit defensive web and scrams especially if you fit MJD.

Yes those fits are tough to fight, but there are plenty of counters, and that method of fighting is hardly limited to BCs, in fact BCs are particularly bad at it.

The irony of Daemun's point is that this change won't actually have any affect whatsoever on 'true' slippery fits, in fact they will become much more dominant in the current meta as an oversized afterburner is not affected by the HIC long scram.

Ships like your anti frigate BC which as you pointed out is relatively easy to counter will be replaced with ships such with oversized and bonused afterburners which are MUCH more difficult to counter.

Although the truth is most people do not understand PvP mechanics well enough to use slippery fits and will probably just bring an 'easy mode' HIC with long scram and MWD.

I think you are vastly underestimating what groups will do with these HICs. A linked proteus/lachesis (with all skills at 5) with pimp scram will be around 27km IIRC. A HIC with a t1 WDFG and HIC4 will be 28-29km. A sebod HIC with a gang could easily catch frigs/cruisers. This wont affect ONLY BCs, but anything that isnt an inty or cloaky.

I could dodge gate camps fairly easily in my BC. Activate MJD immediately on decloak and OH mwd away from gang and in most cases all their points and long webs meant nothing. Ive even done this to WT camps. Ive also never seen mission BCs, only stealth bombers.

My fit doesnt directly counter risk averse gangs. It forces them to come into scram range if they want a kill. Now itll be nomens and HICs. So instead of actually committing to a fight, you will still continue flying kitey gangs, but bring a HIC along so you dont have to commit. Again, being risk averse.

You would bring a BC, but again there would be 5-10 guys (maybe not all your corp, but part of the fleet) and a falcon with that "1 BC". As mentioned previously, you'll have to forgive me if i dont just offer myself as a free kill to a gang that outnumbers me, has EWAR and might be using links. You could have had 2-3 scram frigs with webs and once they landed, warped a BC on top. Or a navy aug. Which you guys used against me at one point which actually killed me with cause it was a tanky SOB with a scram.

Having a 30km+ scram does nothing but reinforce risk averse kitey meta. Especially against larger ships. The MJD "slippery BC" was meant to bring ships in to brawl which is what BCs are good at. At the same time giving me the option to MJD away from all the cancerous garmurs/orthrus that were around. There is nothing worse than being plinked away by 150dps for 3min in a BC with no way to counter.

Which part of his fit is very easy to counter already without a HIC did you not understand?

Stitch even says this himself, all you needed to do was bring a prophecy or harbinger if your amarr loyalist's and you would have destroyed him. Heck he didn't even have any cap defense so you could have just bought a curse, pilgrim or sentinel, once his cap is gone he cannot activate the MJD or much else.

Seriously, BCs are not particularly powerful at the moment, and the MJD is just a small tool in the BC and BS arsenal that gives them a couple of get outs in edge scenarios such as kiting frigates, in a lot of situations it is useless and not worth the mid slot. It is hardly the all powerful module that requires a direct hard counter.

The whole gist of the argument has been that this will adversely affect BSs and BCs, all the other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant to the point which myself and others are pointing out, so it is not that we don't get it, it is that we are looking at it from a different angle.

The kind of ships that deserve more to be hit are the type of kitey frigates that you fly and they will also be hit hard by the HIC long scram. If you think taking on a BC is difficult wait until your gang goes against one of these HIC's.

Again you probably will claim we are being stupid and don't know what we are talking about without changing your blinkered mindset. Your too fixated on your frigates and not looking at the wider picture here.


I can agree with you here, the HIC needs some changes, but the point about the 37.5km scram and turning into a solo monster is where we disagree.

It is good to see you have come around in the end Daemun. This is pretty much what I suggested needed to be implemented a couple of pages back.

I'd be happy with an 80% speed nerf also. The main thing to me is that the HIC doesn't turn into a solo kitey ship but at the same time maintaining its role as an excellent primary tackling ship.

this new hic change is really bad. the focus point can scam u from 30 k then the hic can still move ove 1.2 k with battleship tank while ur stuck and unable to move .whats the point of training recon class ships then . plz balance that